A Question

[laleia]

Before I ask my question, I should probably make two things clear:

1.) I've never read Twilight.
2.) I believe that Mary Sue should be defined as any original character written in a fanfic; as such, I do not believe that female characters in the original source canon should ever be referred to as Mary Sues because quite often, these accusations are actually the result of underlying (internalized or otherwise) misogyny.

Obviously, a lot of people disagree with me about #2. In fact, people often accuse major and minor female characters of being Mary Sues. One recurring example that comes up is Bella Swann from Twilight. I've never actually read Twilight (and I never really plan on doing so, unless it's for a specific purpose; it doesn't sound like the kind of thing I would enjoy for fun), so I've never been able to defend Bella, as it were.

It has recently come to me to wonder, however:

Why is that people always refer to Bella Swann as Mary Sue but I've yet to see anyone refer to Edward Cullen as a Mary Sue (or a Gary Stu)?

I mean, is there an actual canonical reason? Does Edward Cullen in the books simply have more explicit flaws or something? He's less perfect?

Comments

[essbeejay.livejournal.com]

Your question really made me stop and go, "Huh" at myself, because despite how sparkly and insipidly underdeveloped Cullen is I never associated him with a Sue/Stu, while I certainly did it with Bella. But then I was reminded that quite a few comments I've read of Meyer's - particularly the ones where she talks about how she'd have trouble choosing between Edward and Jacob if they both showed up at her door, not to mention the fact that she was inspired to write the series by a dream she had about a gorgeous vampire boy - give me the impression that Bella is largely a projection of herself into the story. So a lot of Bella's Mary Sue-ness (for myself, at least) has to do with the author's gender in this case.

The setup is also pretty... well, familiar. Bella is the new kid at school. Everybody at her new school either wants to be her friend or date her. Including the sickeningly gorgeous hot boy who turns out to be a vampire.

Edited for word choice, plus the fact that I have another thing in my head about how I often classify a character as Sue-ish/Stu-ish based on the gender of the author/creator, but it's too late for my brain to work properly and I'm not convinced Twilight is worth the energy.

[laleia.livejournal.com]

I knew that a lot of Stephenie Meyer's comments indicated that Bella Swann is a huge self-insert, but if you're going by the definition of a Mary Sue as the author's projection into a fictional world, there are an awful lot of male self-inserts in other books that never get labeled "Gary Stu." One example might be the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo trilogy which is written by a Swedish journalist and is about a Swedish journalist who solves crimes and saves the day. I've seen his self-insertion name-checked on occasion, but I don't really see his main character accused of being a Mary Sue as often as Bella is. Granted, his books are an entirely different ballpark from Twilight but the self-insertion at the very least doesn't seem to bother people much at all.

Meanwhile, especially on TV shows that are most often written by men, female characters that appear are very often accused of being Mary Sues, usually along the lines of "It's not the character's fault, of course. But the author tried to make their love interest too perfect, and of course, being too perfect makes her a Mary Sue."

But, of course, I can see how the gender of the author/creator factors into your personal classification of Sue/Stu-ishness. Out of curiosity, how are you affected if you don't know the gender of the author/creator?

As for the setup, I feel like the Edward Cullen's setup (if you reversed the genders) of "I am super-special because I am supernatural and attract people around me. The new boy that everybody else has a crush on has decided to focus on me and become obsessed with me and wants to be with me even though I put him in danger, he doesn't care" can easily become an equally Mary-Sue premise.

Thanks for your comment! :)

[sabrina-il.livejournal.com]

Actually when I first described Girl With the Dragon Tattoo to my friends (movie, not book, but same diff) I described the male protag as a Mary Sue. Because he is, a huge one! I've never seen him refered to as such in professional reviews, but then pro reviews wouldn't call anyone a Mary Sue, generally, and there isn't a fandom for Girl With The Dragon Tattoo that would make it possible to "test" the theory, but. I'm one of those people who refer to author self inserts (around whom the story also revolves) as Sues, male or female (and I don't necessarily think they're a sign of bad writing! It depends!) and there are many examples like that in literature. I think it's also less accentuated in Girl because unlike Twilight, the male journalist isn't the center of every single plotline/scene, though, whereas Bella is literally all over every page of Twilight.

Not that I don't think there's isn't tons of misogyny involved in stuff like this, especially in TV fandoms. I recently got into Doctor Who, and I mean, if there was EVER A MARY SUE IN EXISTANCE the character of the Doctor would be it. God-like perfect being who travels the world and saves the universe and is universally adored and so on. But of course, the person who gets called a Mary Sue most often in fandom is River Song, his wife/girlfriend, for being "too perfect".

[laleia.livejournal.com]

Exactly! To everything!